192: Vanilla Sky (2001)

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everyone, it's Alex sharing an exciting update. Visit WAYW Podcast.com for everything. You can write to us, donate, buy our merch, and join our Patreon. What are you watching? Bonus features is available at patreon.com slash WAYW. For a few bucks a month, you'll get new uncut episodes. Visit WAYW Podcast.com for more. Citizen Dildo? Get it, get it, get it. I I had forgotten the joke, so I'm kind of talking to myself. Like I forgot that for this. And I'm like, oh yeah, there is a lot of uh, you know, citizen cane parallels in Vanilla Sky. I got a kick out of that citizen dildo. It's a very random joke. Like it's just you're like, okay. It's a Croism right there. Not in the originals. No, not how you feeling to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Oh man, this is very exciting. This is a very exciting time. I am such a fan of this movie. This is like I really, really, I've always liked it. This was like one of those movies when I saw as a kid that I just was like blown away. I didn't know that you could do things like this in a movie. I didn't know like movies could go in these directions. I'd never seen a movie about uh like I didn't know of things about like the elephant man yet, or like when it comes to like disfigurement.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Oh, so oh, okay. I thought you meant like Dream Logic. You're just going with like the basic like disfigurement. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Yeah, I like like I mean I like the Dream World stuff, like, yeah, that was still fairly new, but this was I think this was around the time when I was really starting to kind of get into movies because I saw this not very long after it came out in 2001. I didn't see it in theaters, but I think it was one of those ones like around like 2002, 2003, where I started getting a little bit more savvy in terms of film. And this was one where it was one of those strange ones where it wasn't like I was going to find it, it was just like on the shelves at Blockbuster. And it's like, oh yeah, it's that vanilla sky movie that came out with Tom Cruise. All right, I'll check it out. And I had, I did not expect at all to be getting what I got from it. I started watching Open Your Eyes right after I finished my last viewing of this because I had never seen that one and I wanted to see. I know you're gonna talk about it, but there was uh I I actually turned it off because I wanted to, I wanted to keep my pure, my purity that I have for vanilla sky for the pod, because otherwise it would turn into a little bit of like I felt like I would then start to do the the comparison contrasting thing to it.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Yes. Right. I'll I'll spend like a little time, but that's like one or two sentences, but that I don't really find those discussions that interesting. I mean, they're they're very yeah, they're very similar, but they're also very, very different movies. But yeah, I mean that's cool that you I I didn't know about this. It it sounds like I knew you liked the movie, but I didn't know it kind of opened your what an asshole. I was literally gonna say open your eyes for all this cinema stuff. That is not on purpose. What a dick.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

But it worked flawlessly, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Thank you. It did.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

I was um I was consistently shocked by the movie getting into all the things. I certainly didn't expect the car crash. I certainly didn't expect the disfigurement. I didn't expect Tom Cruise to go to the places that he went to with this. And this movie like fucked me up. I I it it it's still to this day, it really, it really upsets me. In in in just in just an audience way of just being like someone where I'm like, God, that like huh, this is really hard. Like, I I I would I I don't know what I would do if something like this happened to me. I don't know, like, and and and so it really messes with in the best possible way, like just the reality and the nightmare of what this type of like what what David Ames is going through. Watching Tom Cruise, and I didn't think he was a very good actor at the time when I saw this. Sure, sure. I only knew him from the blockbuster Tom Cruise, which is not a bad Tom Cruise, Top Gun Days of Thunder, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

I I I think the most at that time um Tom Cruise like performance movie that I had seen up until that point was probably Far and Away, which is actually cut.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Yeah, interview with the vampire. You've talked about that one. Maybe Mission Impossible, maybe you would see.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Oh, yeah, I've seen and I was I was never a fan of those movies. So I know I was like, what are we gonna get here? And then I just saw this guy that just was like he is not afraid at all to play into the waters of of the awkwardness, the uh embarrassment, the the the the cringe factor. Um like he he is completely I mean I the only word I can say is playfulness. He he is he isn't he is letting whatever is coming up happen. And I never expected that from him. This is one of my favorite performances he's ever done, still to this day.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Me too, and yes, absolutely, and that's why we're doing this now, because our next main feed episode will be his new film, Digger, which is directed by Alejandro Gonzalez Iniuritu, a director I love every film of, every film he's made. I know he's somewhat hotly contested in terms of his style, but I'm very much looking forward to it. I know enough to know that I we're not like in we're not in 21 Grams territory. I think we're gonna be a little closer to Birdman territory, which is fine. But you know, I wanted to pick a movie of his and do a deep dive on a movie that we haven't necessarily talked about a lot because we've never done, you know, we haven't done like a Cameron Crow filmography, but we've done one for Kubrick, we've done one for PTA. This was a really interesting movie when it came out, and we'll start we can start with Tom Cruise because my favorite Cruise era This is it. Yeah, it's we're right in the middle of it because it starts in '96 and basically stops in like 2004. And I'm not saying everything good in there or everything in there is good or great, and I'm not saying he had bad stuff before and after, like there's greatness all around. But when we start with Jerry Maguire, which I do think Cameron Crow taps into a different side of Cruz with that, and I just love that movie. And then, you know, there's three years off. The biggest movie star in the world. There is no film after Jerry Maguire until Eyes Wide Shut. That really got my attention. We talked about that movie a lot. I love his performance in it. I think he takes a lot of the rage and just the it must have been crazy film the same movie with your wife for three years. Like it just must have been nuts. And I think he puts that into Magnolia, gets nominated for the Oscar, should have won, in my opinion. Yeah. Mission Impossible 2 is absolutely bad shit, but I've always had a soft spot for it because I think it's the most insane one. That's 2000. And then yeah, Vanilla Sky is the end of 2001. And then just rounding out that we have Minority Report, Last Samurai, not a perfect movie, but he's doing some interesting stuff in it. He's never tried to play a drunk before, I don't think. And he does, you know, sake. I just kind of like that. And then kind of with my thing ending with collateral, which is a really like you know, cool Michael Mann performance from him. But the the weirdest is this one. It's not Eyes Wide Shut. Eyes Wide Shut is the weirdest movie of those, but he is just like a lost lamb in that, like going out, he's just a dude trying to get late. That's it. And when when he gets close to it, he either chickens out or something comes up, or you know, whatever it is. This thing, he spins out in Jared Maguire because of unemployment. This he's just like spinning out, he's losing his fucking mind. And I remember being so impressed in the theater, like, whoa. So I saw this opening weekend with my dad and my brother. Like, we had we all three of us went and we're watching. And I want to interject here with just one thing to say, we're gonna do this podcast a little differently. This episode, I didn't I wanted to embrace the spirit of the film and not necessarily go buy it beat for beat, scene for scene, and we're just gonna have like an episode-length freewheeling conversation about it, kind of like the movie itself, and wherever we go, we go. Of course, there are spoilers, all that stuff. It it this was nuts in the theater when it came out December 2001, because of the ending. The seeing the twin towers in the background, those had fallen just months earlier, and then he jumps. And that jumping, I mean, we had the falling man image from 9-11 like in our head. It was a really, really big deal, and the movie was released and no one liked it. I mean, it made a lot of money because Tom Cruise was a star, but audiences did not get it, had a D minus cinema score, which is really rare. And then critics were like, Fuck this, like, okay, Cruz has been doing some good work, eyes wide shut is weird, Magnolia. It's like no one can dispute that his the power of his performance, and now they're like, This is some stupid vanity project, it was a perfectly good movie out of Spain, they didn't need to do this, and it's just a vanity project for Cruz, like it's literally about a rich guy who's bummed out that his face gets defigured. Boo-hoo. That was a sentiment for a long time. Yeah, it's crazy, really got discarded. But then, like, the three of us, my dad, my brother, and I, we all loved it. And you know, there wasn't always a cross and intersection of our tastes. This was it, and I immediately watched Abre Los Ojos open your eyes, that or in early 2002, whenever it came out, and then DVD, good word of mouth, the movie caught on, and I was interested to find on Wikipedia that it said the film later developed a cult classic because there's or developed a cult following because the movie made 203 million dollars. That's a pretty high box office draw to be considered a cult movie, but it actually fits because this people did not like this, it was not well received, like at all. And I just think that's kind of crazy looking back.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

I do too. And I and I remember this sentiment too, because I remember when I was like picking this out on the shelves of just being like, Yeah, I heard this movie's not good. It was not a movie I was excited to rent. I remember that it was it was like a a settlement renting. Like I was like, I guess I'll just kind of get this one. I'll f fill out my double feature with the whatever else I was getting. And that's the funniest thing was I like this movie so much that I forgot what the hell else I rented. I love when that happens. I love that, yeah. And yeah, and this movie has, and now I I don't hear any of that negativity when it comes to this movie, like none of it. Like, I mean, I'm I've obvious I yes, of course I understand the the the twin towers. It was, I mean, it the the timing of that is unfortunate. I mean, now that we're literally 25 years later, 25, it doesn't like even I when I was re-watching this, I it didn't even occur to me once uh uh of that. It it because I was so overtaken by what the actual meaning of the ending is. And so uh so I I don't think that that holds up anymore for criticism. I think the fact that Tom Cruise, because he was Tom Cruise, and that's why I think we like that era of particularly of his work, because that was like that was all the work that went against Tom Cruise, except maybe Mission Impossible too, because that was just sort of like well, that was that was in the mix.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

But that's why 96 is so fascinating because he starts his own franchise, which it could still be going. I don't know if we're getting another one, Mission Impossible, but then he's always like, No, I'm I'm an adult too. Here's Jared McGuire, those come out months apart, so it's yeah, it I I agree with what you're saying, but he also had the action vehicle, so he was creating these two different paths for himself. It was fascinating to watch.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

And in the movies that we like the most, it's I think there was a very deliberate idea of what happens when the world's most perfect man loses things. Yeah, yeah, like like I mean, Jerry Maguire, he loses his job. But I mean, and that might seem, you know, kind of, you know, just sort of you know, uh elementary to the eye, but when you watch Jerry Maguire, like like it goes so much deeper than that, even though the tone of that movie is like we talked about, there is a very like that that that that movie is a magical movie in so many ways because of what it's able to kind of capture, but never really lose a certain tonality of lightness. Um, but yeah, that's a man that is like it it it throws his whole entire world into upheaval, eyes wide shut. This idea of him not I don't think he's worried about losing his life, but he's losing something.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

He's losing this, he is losing everything he thought his life was, he now thinks is a lie. So he's lost all perception, everything just from this one little omission that his wife found someone attractive once in a hotel, she didn't even do anything about it, she just found someone attractive, and this weak ass man gets spun out of control with this.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

I love it, and and that's sort of what happens, right? That's why I don't think that this argument holds up because when you take a guy like David Ames and Vanilla Sky, who is young, wealthy, not a not a technically what what anyone else could consider a real problem, but you take a guy like that and then you take away his beauty, um, that that's gonna do it. That's gonna be I that's why I love like the line where he has like this isn't about vanity when he's talking to the uh the doctors, and I'm like, okay, yeah, sure it's not, you know. And Magnolia, it's I mean, he essentially is playing such a loser that is just disguised himself as a complete winner.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

We see this a lot now. I mean, look how prescient that performance is. I'm not gonna say any names, but there are overt machismo, chest out, women are you know, men are shit. Fuck that. We're every it's so ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

It's so ridiculous, and and he was doing it that that like in like 20 years before it actually became a real thing. And then and then came this run, and then he kind of goes back into the the movie stardom of of Tom Cruise with all the mission and pot. Like it seemed at a certain point he kind of just leaned into just being the the action star.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

That's why we're doing this now because I mean, I think really after collateral, you see, there are a few things in here. He's trying like Lions for Lambs, he's trying Valkyrie, which also has some action. But then at some point he's like, I mean, I don't know. I've never interviewed the man. What it has always seemed like to me is he's used the majority of this century so far to be like, all right, uh, despite what I may hope for, I am not gonna live forever, and I'm not gonna be able to do this crazy action shit forever. Like the success of F1 made it possible for you know this days of thunder 2 to become a thing. But I don't know how I mean, I don't know anything about that type of racing, so don't let me talk out of turn, but I don't think that's gonna be as physically arduous as a Mission Impossible movie. We will see. But though this latest Mission Impossible, the final reckoning, was supposed to be the final one. So we'll, you know, now Days of Thunder, I've heard Top Gun 3 maybe, but him working with someone as strong-willed as in Euritu, I went, okay, that this could happen at any moment. There is nothing. This is what I've been saying for years. I've said it on this pod. There's nothing stopping this man from working with PTA again. Why not? Yeah, I mean, PTA tomorrow could get it greenlit, like my next movie stars Tom. We already talked about it. I would go, I don't even give a shit what it's about. He's worked with all these directors. The action career was largely uh he's not the director of them, but it's him being in control, it's him, you know, sure, running, kind of running these directors, Kaczynski, Macquarie. I'm not taking their directing capabilities away from them, but he has a he has a much, much stronger hold on the material. But that's not gonna be the case with something like Digger. I mean, he could he has a producer creditor credit on it, but you're still submitting to the will of Iniritu. That's just the way it's gonna go down, and that's the way it is with I mean, there's a lot here. He could work with Scorsese again, he's getting old, but I you know that he's worked with a lot of of the biggest heavy hitters. Why not work with Michael Mann again? I mean, there's so many ways this could go, and I've been ready for like dramatic cruise or risk-taking cruise to come back. And David Ames and Vanilla Sky, it's one of the last like truly great versions of go go for broke cruise that we got. I mean, that fucking that sex scene with camp, you know, cruise and it turns into Cameron Diaz and the Porpoise song is going, and then Can We Be Friends starts playing. Like, he's out of his mind in that and he even goes like what the fuck is happening? And it's so believable. I mean, I've yeah, I he's never done anything like that one scene before or since. It's wild.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

It it is, and that's why this I I love it so much, is because he he's he's not afraid to go to all of these complete, like insane places, like because he's never been afforded that opportunity, like yeah, like Magnolia, Eyes Wide Shut. He kind of loses it in the way that that character needs to lose it. But this is a full-on like meltdown. Like, this guy is truly losing his mind. He can't, he cannot differentiate who he's seeing. He truly believes that Sophia is Penelope Cruz, it it and and when he's seeing Cameron Diaz, like it, it's it's it's I mean, it's obviously we're in a nightmare part of the dream, but I mean, like, the way that you end up playing that as the actor is like everyone else is crazy. Yeah, you're the only one, and that is mental illness. Yeah, people that are seeing real people that are not there.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Ah, and the first time I certainly that I saw it, I have to assume most everyone, you don't know what the fuck's going on. You're like, what? I mean, we have no choice but to believe him because he's our protagonist, and we're like, is all this real? Like, what is this? Is he just losing his mind? It was a lot of fun to watch that and to not really know, but then at the end of the movie be totally taken care of. And yeah, Alejandro, oh god, forgive me, Alejandro Amenabar, probably saying the last name wrong. I apologize. He made Open Your Eyes, known in Spain as Aurelos Ojos, in 1997. Tom Cruise saw it, bought the rights to it, really wanted to, you know, have it remade. Cameron Crow comes aboard. So, but just to talk about that film really quick, the most interesting thing, this really hasn't been done. I did some extensive research and couldn't find too many other examples of this. Penelope plays the same character in both movies, and it's not the same performance, it's not because the movies have different tones. It's just really cool. I don't know, it's just a really cool thing that like, and that helped her break out and become a movie star in America. She was already doing, you know, Alma do uh yeah, Alma Dovar movies. She was doing she had a career going, but that kind of it helped break her out, and it's really fun for this to be a double feature to watch that. So that's uh kind of the most interesting thing about it to me.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

I I've heard her in interviews talk about how duh does she does not feel the connection necessarily between both of them. She was like, Yeah, the the the the one in 1997 was a completely different experience, and then just because it was the same character, but it was like everything was so different, she was saying that it didn't necessarily feel like I was doing the same thing twice.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Yeah, that plays, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

And I and I actually what like once we're done with this pod, like I actually want to watch the rest of Open Your Eyes because I just want to see what that difference is between the movies. Um, but the the uh I'll tell you what, man, the the chemistry between Tom Cruise and Penelope Cruise. I it's it's to me those scenes when they are with each other, those are some of the most incendiary, like on screen. Uh, chemistries I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Like, I am you really feel for Jason Lee in that introduction. He's like, I'm still here, like I'm I'm standing here, and you just believe, and they're not even really flirting, they're just talking about how giant her code is. Yeah, they are drawn to each other. I mean, you know, he Cruz and Nicole Kidman, their divorce was being finalized while they were making this movie. And I'm just saying, it's not really hard to see why he, Tom Cruise, and Penelope Cruz ended up dating for a few years after this, and it was a public relationship, and you're like, Well, I can see why.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Yeah, they're on fire really on fire, and and um, and Jason Lee, yeah, let's talk about him just a little bit. I love him in this movie, I do too. Yeah, I think I think he's on. I mean, it's it's it's a strange casting because you know, in Jason Lee's career, you don't really see him show up in types of movies like this. He's kind of got his Jason Lee lane, you know, kind of playing the guy that's always gonna lose out to the wealthier, better looking friend. I I he he falls perfectly into that. He's got that beautiful line I wrote down, I just love it so much. It um you will never know the exquisite pain of being the guy who goes home alone. Yeah. And you know, and Tom Cruise is so great because he is you know, there there is something to like that beginning section of Tom Cruise's performance where he's so narcissistic that Cameron Diaz is Jason Lee's like big celebrity crush. He knows that he brought this girl in. I don't think he's doing it necessarily to do it, but I like I don't think he's being that malicious in like these sexual conquests over his friend, but there is absolutely a um a relishing that he has in doing that.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

Oh, yeah, and he's always downplaying it like, no, nothing's going on, like it's fine. Yeah, come on, you just had a little too much of drink, and that's another thing that Cruz, as the actors, it's it he's playing that balance really well, and you're like, Oh, he's kind of a shithead. But also, Jason Lee, you did just meet this lady at a library and brought her over here like out of nowhere. It's not, I mean, it's you know, you haven't been dating for months or something, it's not like that. Just sticking with Jason Lee for a second, watching him, you know, he absolutely talks to Cameron Diaz. Like we see that a few times at that party. And then I don't like this term, forgive me. We're here talking about Vanilla Sky. It's wild how that term fuck buddy rings like a red flag and it is brought up again. And like that word has never come out of Tom Cruise's mouth that never came, he never referred to her that way. Jason Lee did, yes, and then he gets sloshed out, is clearly, you know, talking to old Julie Gianni there and lets that slip. So there's a part of this where it's like, would that have sent her over the edge if she didn't know that? And then the circle of that kind of closing when he calls him out on the street, and he's like, Why did you tell Julie Gianni I was that's the only time that term has come out of David's mouth? And you see Jason Lee, like I never talked to her, and he gets that Camicrow gives him that little second to kind of look off to be like, Wait, did I? Um they also feel like friends, but a friend where like one has significantly more money and he's creative and all that, they feel as real as crews and crews, you know?

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Yeah, yeah, it's absolutely true, and yeah, and that I love that moment that he has too because it it could very well be like he might not have even like recalled doing that because he was drinking when he's like, No, I would never, and he means that, but then he goes, But was I kind of a little drunk? Maybe did I do that? I might have, I might have, like, yeah, like and and it's all just honest. Like, I don't think he was lying to Cruz when I mean he I think he ends up doing it, but I don't think he's doing it to skate away. I think he's sort of like, no, I've I never said okay, yeah. Um, well, stick to the point of you're crazy right now.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

I also think he has one of the hardest line deliveries in the movie because it's such a big line, but he nails it and he goes, Listen up, because this is the last time we're ever gonna speak. I fucking love that line. Like, I you know, if you're having a big blowout with someone and I actually believe it, I'm like, oh, that he's serious, he's never gonna talk to him again. Of course, knowing what we know at the end of the movie, this is a nightmare section, but still, all this it doesn't matter, it's still real to the actors, and he absolutely shows their reality.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Yeah, and I and and and I love that that's the ground that he stands on. Like, he's like, You never hit a girl, like you hit me if you want to, but you never do this. And so that you're getting a more you know fleshed out, real kind of human experience, even though, yes, it is a nightmare, but we don't know that, right? Exactly. We don't know it yet. And if you're writing this movie, you you and that's the trap. You you can't be right, you you know that that information's gonna come out at the very end, but you have to take care of your movie from the standpoint of this being a murder that went down, and here's the reality, and here's how we got there, and these are all the pieces because it needs to kind of track in that way.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Yeah. I was gonna close the door on open your eyes real quick.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

I was gonna oh, are were you? Okay, close close it, swing it shut.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

So I'm gonna swing it shut, and then I'm gonna explain my outfit to you and why it you'll understand. Um, it's a good movie, it's very different. It plays much more like a Polanski film than something else, like the music, the look, the tone. There, there's two things I'll point out because I know you're gonna watch it. Number one, the main character is way more of an asshole. Like, you know, the sweet reunion scene of Vidella Sky where they see each other again. He's like, This is me smiling, and she's like dancing. She's not a dancer per se, and open your eyes, she kind of is. I'll withhold what she does, but it's the same sort of like meeting, and he immediately is like, Why the fuck did haven't you reached out to me since my accident? Like, where the fuck have you been? So it's more antagonistic in that way, and then of course, open your eyes is not a Cameron Crow movie. So, what he does with it, open your eyes is vanilla sky with no pop culture. There's you know, there's no pop culture references in it. And vanilla sky is like, that is Cameron Crow, the pop, the music, the yeah, movies, the posters, just like injecting it. You know, you watched a movie once. Who's your favorite Beatle? And you know, speaking of pop culture, this has nothing to do with the film, but it will explain to you why I'm wearing a hoodie. This weekend, we were gonna record this on Saturday, but I had to push a little bit because I saw 70 millimeter 2001 and 70 millimeter was a great time. But then after I had a little I had a double feature that day, they were playing double indemnity in the in the movie theater there, so I went to go see it. Kind of like how he, you know, likes Audrey Hepper and David Ames here watching Sabrina in the beginning, things like that. He's got the poster of Jules and Jim. I'm sitting there watching double indemnity, and I'm like, you know what? Fuck it. I think it's time. Hold on. What do we have here? That's why I took off, that's why I was wearing a hoodie.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

He's standing up. Oh my god, that is incredible.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

So I got a giant armor standwind tattoo on my right bicep. I think it's fucking awesome. It's so funny. Uh, it's gonna be there for the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Well, hang on one second. Hang on. We need to we need to unpack some things here. Number one, that is it's really awesome. It looks amazing. I like like what what's very, very tough. I know everyone on this pod cannot actually see.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Maybe maybe you take a picture of it and put it up on it is it is her famous picture. She's in a grocery store in double indemnity, wearing those glasses, looking like a fucking badass. And I just took that still and gave it to him, and I was like, I want this.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Well, and you did a really smart thing because there are gonna be a lot of people that are gonna have no idea what double indemnity is, they won't know who Barbara Stanwyck is, and they'll see that tattoo, and then they'll be like, Well, who's the who's the chick? Yeah, and but to anyone that does know that is like I knew immediately who that was, where it was from. It is that good of a job that they did to he did it amazing, he took him one hour.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

I was like, What the fuck? And he was done. Man, it it gets a little tender when they're on top of your bicep like that, but it you know, it was all right. Yeah, it's like the size of I don't know, it's big and it's big enough for me. Like the size a little bigger than a post-it.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

No, it looks great. It's a good, it's a good placement. And what's nice is like if you keep going in that area, you can add a bunch of other like cool stuff like around it.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Well, yeah, I've got the whole back of my arm. So Allie was like, dude, I was like, I should put Monty there. Oh man, that'd be hilarious. My barber and Monty on one arm. No, so I wanted to show that to you and reveal it to the audience, and then I got to take my hoodie off.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Well, but I hear, but now I gotta have an explanation here because you have been a like words-only threat to man. Yep. Yep. So so what made this switch and and explain yourself.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Yeah, so basically, if we you know, dear listeners ever met in person and you looked at me, it's I you know, a lot of I get a lot of memento jokes, like, oh, you're trying to be like the guy for memento, and I just I go, Yeah, sure, it's fine. Her image to me is so iconic, she's my favorite. Her and Monty Clift are my top two, like ever. Yeah, I've loved her for a really long time. I love her in double indemnity, and her like getting her name or a quote. There's no necessarily like one quote from the movie that I liked, and I thought about it for a long time, and then I went, I don't know, this could be something that's kind of cool to consider, like not getting a script and just having, yeah, a straight kind of portrait of a woman on my arm, and of course I ran it by Allie and she because you know I'm getting another woman tattooed on my arm. I kind of run it by the wife. She loved it, she was a huge supporter of it. She has been encouraging me to do it for a while, so I did. But yeah, that it was definitely a a breaking from the script. I never I it's I've always said if I find something, you know, I'll get it. But I don't I I find something and then wait on it for usually at least a year. I is how long I'll think about like ours, we got kind of quickly, but we thought about it for a while. Well, we did. We we we we thought about that for a long time, and then when we got re arrived at the quote, we're like, okay, yeah, that's good. So yeah, that I mean that was it. That was put a lot of thought into it, but not I don't sit here and agonize over it. I used to get really nervous before them, and then I was just in super chill mode yesterday, and I'm like, nah, I'm cool, it's gonna be awesome.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

No, I love it, it looks great, and I like that idea because it's not, it's it's your favorite actress, yeah, and it's your favorite, like it's the it's the performance that you get too. So if you were to get it like a Monty Clift one, you'd probably get like a place in the sun still like portrait.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

Because I was trying to think, I was like, does he wear because she's wearing you know these big cool looking glasses. I'm like, does he wear glasses? Maybe in one or two of them, but yeah, it's also not something you gotta get those Monty eyes. Monty eyes, God George Eastman. Fuck, I love that movie. I'm ready for another place in the sun rewatch.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Because you can't because what are you gonna get? You're gonna get a Monty Cliff where like post post-crash. No, that's that's a bad time.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Yeah, it's gotta it's gotta be before, unfortunately. It's gotta be before, unfortunately. It really does. So that was it. That was that was a little detour. A little pop culture detour from Vanilla Sky. But that is really like the main thing. It's all these pop culture references, and I also I do want to clear something up. The 9-11 stuff, that I I actually don't think anyone, to my memory, was critical of that. I think they appreciated that he, you know, left those renderings in and stuff, but it's also and we're gonna take you know however long to block out the Times Square scene. Let's just open that up kind of now. Oh, yeah. That in itself was crazy because we had no one like if you've never been to New York, you still know Times Square is like popping off. You've probably seen a New Year's Eve celebration. Like, it's crazy there, it's even crazier now, it's even way more touristy now. There is no way they did that in I think it was September 2000. Yeah, yeah, September 2000. You they would that would never happen again, though they will never be able to do that again. And just seeing it, they gave them two hours total, two hours on a Sunday, right when the sun came up, and they're like, This is it, this is all you have, and they did it, they actually did it in under time, and then on the making of Cameron Crows, like this uh you know, we send into our walkies basically to the police, like, we are done. They lifted up the barricade, and he said within 30 seconds it looked like Times Square again. People, cars, like you, you there was no indication that we had even been there, so it was just weird because like 9-11 imagery, no one had ever seen New York, like the streets empty like that, and they're empty, and now you know it there's no way they could have known that this would hit. And I I like that about it too. And I think a lot of people did. I think they just had trouble with other aspects of it, but really, just like you know, opening the movie up, this Times Square thing, it's still really cool to watch, and there's no digital effects, it's just an actor like running, like none of it is fake, it's all real, it's really remarkable.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

It's it it and it does not lose its like like that feeling that is on his face when he like when he gets out of that Porsche and is looking around, like it is as jarring as like you really do think it's the end of the world because to anyone like it you you don't even have need to ever have been there to understand that why is nobody here, like this emptiness, and um, and and let's even start from the very beginning. I really dig like those opening shots of like these aerial shots that are kind of swirling around, they really do look like your eyes are blinking and then they're opening and you're getting a brand new shot, and then you're hearing those that the whistling of the wind. Oh, beautiful, and you start to get these little like kind of like they're not really distinguishable, but you start to get these whispers, and then you finally get to open your eyes. And the movie is letting you know right from the beginning that which is a perfect way to enter into this, we're in a trippy kind of place. Yeah, like the like we're we're like this isn't going to be a straightforward narrative. This, you know, so kind of like get ready, and then you get that needle drop of everything in its right place by Radiohead.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Uh my favorite songs, one of my favorite albums. Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

I don't know why it's so perfect for this movie because, like, this is one of the I would say it may be, I mean, it's a very bold statement, I really have to think about it, but in terms of any song that gives you a certain feeling, a mood from those opening notes, I everything in its right place by Radiohead, I don't care where you are, who you are, you hear that those first 20 seconds of that song, you're in an emotional place somehow. You're you're in, you're just you're in somewhere else. And the way that it's starting its day, and the way that it's also being jumbled by Cameron Diaz on the answering machine. And I just even love the way that he gets up. Like, here's a guy who just wakes up who's already like he's sleepy, but he's like, I'm the king. I'm gonna get up. And then and then he's met with that that really, really like, I mean, just what a cool experience to be able to run through that city with nobody like it, like no one else will ever say they've done they've done that.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

That's what I mean. Not without extensive CGI, AI, whatever. I mean, even when like Tarantino transforms Hollywood Boulevard into 1969 Hollywood Boulevard for once upon a time in Hollywood, there's still he's choosing his angles carefully. Like, go back and look at that because he's also dealing with you know time period having to do that. But it's now that we are 25 years out, I mean, my god, I'm uh in a few days, it'll be the 25th anniversary of 9-11. I didn't even really realize that. But now that we are 25 years out from this movie, that's the type of shit that still holds up. That's the these it's the same reason why things like you know, I've been for an upcoming episode re-watching a lot of uh directors' cuts. So I've been watching like Troy director's cut, Alexander Director's Cut. There's things to like in these movies, but none of them look as good as the Odyssey, and they're not gonna look better than the Odyssey 25 years from now. The Odyssey is still gonna look better because it did not use this terrible CGI. And yeah, I could just I can see like what I don't know, the Netflix version of the vanilla sky opening, but just it's so practical and you feel all of that. And I love just such a trippy way to begin. Yes, radio had yes, then the music changes and all the radical cutting. It's and you know, empty Times Square. It just looks it looks really, really ominous and it apps, it's a perfect way to start the movie, and that he lives in the Dakota, which is where Rosemary's baby takes place. So, like that building for film fans is it's just like a haunting image to see that building because that's where you know that's where Rosemary was.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

We talk about we don't really talk about Cameron Crow too often on the pod, but you know, for every single movie that he's done, for better seen or worse, he has landed some pretty iconic moments in cinema that will never go away. The the uh you complete me moment from Jerry McGuire. The uh we Alex and I will talk about this uh in our spare time of the bus ride and almost famous for when they're singing Tiny Dancer.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

But I mean I know it's iconic, but I just don't like how they cut into the song. It doesn't make any fucking sense to me. But anyway, say anything, boombox on your on his head, that's iconic. Yeah, there's a few in I mean, almost famous, I'm a golden god. The man is able to, yes, carve out a great scene. And this is that scene for this movie.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

Like there is, I mean, if you if as we'll talk about, there's so much more going on here. But I mean, if someone's gonna be like vanilla sky, oh, that's the Times Square thing. That's that's the movie that where that happens, yes. So yeah, it's it's a testament to him that he he has he has carved out some very, very, very iconic cinema moments.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Yeah, yeah, and hasn't made you know too many films. And I'm not we're talking about Vanilla Sky here, a movie we both really like. It it it was just done for me after this. I you know, after this we got Elizabeth Town, We Bought a Zoo, and Aloha. And I think all three of those movies are really just not good. So I don't, you know, we had Say Anything in 1989, then singles, Jerry Maguire, Almost Famous, and Vanilla Sky. It's a good run for me. I've only seen singles like two or three times. I love Campbell Scott, so I'll watch him in anything. But all the others I've seen quite a few times, and also another really interesting thing about Vanilla Sky, because Tom Cruise approached him and was like, Hey, I hear this movie, open your eyes. Would you want to do this? Cameron Crow usually takes a long time between movies, and they just kept literally kept the band together from Almost Famous and parlayed right into Vanilla Sky. All the same crew members. That's why Jason League, who's also an almost famous, Noah Taylor, also an almost famous, and playing a completely different part in Vanilla Sky. You know, I'm your what is it, your technical support. I love his voice too. The little lisp. I I always like that when a director takes usually really long time between projects, but then has like back-to-back movies. Fincher's done it a couple times, you know, Social Network, Dragon Tattoo, boom, boom. I guess Zodiac and uh Benjamin Button were too. That seems like the bigger undertaking. It's just it's funny when that happens. So that's another thing, just to paint a little context of you know the movie and where we're at, but and my general crow feelings, but I don't know how you feel about like the entirety of his career or those later films I mentioned.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Well, strangely enough, I have a real soft spot for We Bought a Zoo. Really? Okay, yeah. All right, I I I you know what I think the the the best way I can equate it to you and I, the way that you feel about um oh fuck, what doesn't that that movie with Meryl Street where she plays the the girl?

SPEAKER_00 43:30

Oh, oh, great comp, Ricky in the Flesh. Great comp Ricky in the flesh. I really, really like that movie. I really do, and no one else does. And I've read that the fucking end of that movie makes me weep like a baby. Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

And I feel that way about fair, totally fair. It's a it's a it and I'm not I'm not saying that it's there's uh like I think there's probably more more validity in in in Ricky and The Flash. Um but There there's just something that's living in that we bought a zoo for me that is just so sweet and well-intentioned. That's Cameron Crowe, so that's fair. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I feel like in that one, he's really, he's really kind of after a certain type of idea. And I think Matt Damon is actually really great in it. And also as like, I there's one line that he's when they're his arguing with his son, because his son's not happy that they've moved and and bought a zoo because the mother died. And he died at a very uh specific age for a son to lose their mother. I believe the son is about like 13 or 14, and they're arguing on the staircase. It gets to that point where Matt Damon has nothing left to be like, I'm sorry that your mom died. And I'm sorry she died when she did. But that's just how that one went. And there's been so many times in my life where you end like that sentence right there. That's just how that one went. It's the way it goes. It's life, baby. It's the way it fucking that's life. Like, and there is there, it's weird because I find a lot of comfort in that. And then it's also it's all of the it's all of the unfairness, but it's also all of just the simplicity. Like, we can get it all as upset we want, and maybe there's room for that. But at the end of the day, we can't do anything. That's how that one went. And um, so I don't know. There, there's things that exist in that movie that I really like, but there's a lot of really dumb stuff too. But uh, but I I I I always have a soft spot for that movie.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

That's cool. I mean, I I only saw that one once, and so you maybe want to kind of go back and we don't need to, you won't like it. All right, well, fine. I mean, I think I think I know you well enough because you're I think I know it's not about like liking, but just seeing like I would appreciate. I mean, I watch a lot of fucking movies. I can just like squeeze one in to see, like, oh, I want to see what Nick kind of gets from this because I have the same sort of like Jerry Maguire always makes me cry. I just think it's so like beautiful toward the end. And then Vanilla Sky, you know, let's uh yeah, what whatever. This is fine. Let's get back to it. No, let's get back to it. The you know, it's it's really interesting because David Ames has a fear of heights, and that's a running thread, so he sets up this thing for himself where he has to jump at the end. I've never had a fear of heights ever until my brother died by suicide. And this is how he died. This was 10. I just hit 10 years. My dad, my family, and I hit 10 years, which is crazy because it feels like yesterday, and it was a jumping situation as well. And now I I it it it a brain uh switch got flipped in my brain. I'm not afraid of them, but my stomach gives out, my hands start shaking. Not in a plane or not like not even like on an overlook of a of a hill, like if you're hiking or something. I've done that, but yeah, the tops of buildings, high balconies. I can't really do anymore. Like, I'll just God. When I went to Chicago, I don't I forget what it's called now. I it used to be the Sears Tower. I'm like, I'm gonna go up and fucking do that. Just kind of as a test to myself, they have this little like walkout thing that you can walk and you're in the middle of the air, like you're in this glass box, but you're like standing over the street, and I like had to kind of use my hands as support. I've tried some like rope activities that like kids do and shit, where you're in like this rope course and you know, walking. I do all this stuff to test my fear. So I I don't remember the last time I watched Vanilla Sky. It has been at least eight years, I'll say, and I got really emotional watching it for this, like thinking about my brother thinking, because that's always the first thing that that's where the the kind of sweatiness comes from. Is I'm just you know, sorry that we got you know and serious really quick. Welcome to what you watching, welcome to what are you watching, big shocker, but that my head gets like cloudy and fuzzy because I'm always thinking, like, what the fuck was he thinking? Like right before. I I just I really I can't imagine. So and seeing it all of it, seeing the movie and knowing that like David Ames hate hates heights and he set up this control for himself where he has to make himself jump. I'm like that's I I just thought that was kind of fucking cool, honestly, and like challenging yourself. So I had this different connection to it now where I was not sad watching it, I just kind of got hit with this wave of like, oh, you know, that's uh not unlike what you just said about we bought a zoo, like it just fucking happened, and now here we are. Like the pieces, the pieces have been picked up, and now we're just watching a movie. So that's why I'm not like ah screw that we bought a zoo sucks. Like any movie, it any including any movie that I've ever talked any shit about, no movie is free from sentimental personal connection. Anyone can have a personal connection to any movie about anything, and good. I'm glad you do to whatever it is, and that's what it's all about.

SPEAKER_01 49:03

That's that's the end of the day. Like, it's it's all about how you connect, and that there's there's times where even I thought about this movie for for your brother when I was watching it. Yeah, yeah. I even I can't separate that now. It's weird, right? Yeah, I mean, obviously it's so much more visceral for you, but it it's never it's never it's never without like my sort of like oh yeah, there it is. Like, you know, and um and and you know, and that's the other thing you know, I think as you go on with anything in life, that's why it's such a problem with Vortex.

SPEAKER_00 49:40

Yeah, exactly. You're not like that movie was sh poorly made because it's not, I mean it's a Gaspared Away movie, but that is hitting something for that is activating a fear in you, and I absolutely understand. That's why, although I'll poke a little fun at you sometimes, um when you're like I can't do it again, I'm like, oh I get it, I get it.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Oh yeah, oh yeah, it it it because that because that one for me, that's like you know, my my father died by himself, and so when when when he's having that heart attack and the wife is is there, but she might as well not be. Yeah, she's you know, yeah, she's in another room, yeah. And so there's this that idea of just like you know, being alone for something like that, and I was like, and because of cut of course it's gas fire, so he's gonna, he's gonna he's gonna do it the most.

SPEAKER_00 50:31

You know, like he's got like you basically I was stunned he wasn't dead. The act you know, the actor playing. Oh, he's still alive in the morning. I was like, he is Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

And and so, you know, so yeah, so you know, yeah, whatever your shit is, you know, there there's gonna be movies that are gonna do the same thing. There's gonna be the ones that disturb you, the ones where it's gonna it's gonna hit too close to where you're like, I can't do that. And then there's gonna be the ones where it's like this, where we bought a zoo, where it's all of a sudden like there's gonna be like these comforting like moments where, man, more than ever, I'm I'm you know, you you you can't like like David's Jason Lee says, you can't have the sweet without the sour. Yeah. And um, and that's that's a perfect segue right there.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

Boom. Yeah, let's go back to the Jason Lee conversation. I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_01 51:18

Well, well, speaking of, I one other thing, because I don't know if we'll say it again. There is one reaction shot that he has. It's one of my favorite reaction shots. It's when Tom Cruise and Penelope are meeting for the first time and they're doing like that that little tit for tat where it's they're lost in themselves, and Jason Lee keeps being like, by the way, I'm right here. But there's this one moment where he sort of like is like he doesn't even have lines, he just has this like like smile on his face of like, they're not even looking, like he's completely flavor gasted that he like looks visible, yeah, yeah. He's like it's just like a face that only Jason Lee could make too, but it's also perfect, it's just sort of like I don't even exist.

SPEAKER_00 52:02

Well, can't I I mean, we we talked a little bit about Penelope Cruz. I would like to talk a little bit about Cameron Diaz because she's really talking about and I did not realize. Oh, I'll say like I've had the old school DVD forever, the 4K was ten dollars, and I went, Well, okay, I mean, this is it's a no-brainer at this point for me. Like a movie that I'm re-watching for the pod, yeah, I'll upgrade to the 4K. Looked and sounded amazing from my DVD. Holy crap, it was a huge upgrade. But then there's a lot of special features, and I had listened to the commentary before, but I'm re-listening to it. It's really cool. It's Cameron Crow and his then wife Nancy Wilson, you know, of heart fame, and she has a guitar on her. And as Crow's kind of going with talking about the movie, she's in the background playing in its acoustic guitar. Really cool commentary. But he said here that she was on a break from filming Gangs of New York in Italy. So that's the whole time she filmed Vanilla Skies, she was just on a break from Gangs of New York, and you know, I don't like her performance in that movie, and it is fan, it's just wild how I again I don't know this. May I'm just putting I I'm putting my own thing into this, but was there frustrations on Gangs New York? Was it not? I I don't know. I know it was a very difficult movie to make, but it just feels like not unlike Cruz going from Eyes Wide Shut to Magnolia and letting this rage out. She's going from Gangs New York to Vanille Sky and letting it fly. What she and how she hand what she says and how she handles everything in that car, it's it's remarkable, it is fucking terrifying. And then him realizing the stakes of like, oh shit, and you know, switching like I love you, I I I love you, you know, from angrily stopped a car to I love you. It's it's that's I mean, a fantastic scene, but she is also really, really good in this. I really like her in this.

SPEAKER_01 53:56

The it's it's between this and very bad things, which is my are my two favorite Cameron Diaz performances. But if I was to pick like there's something that exists in both of them, there is the Cameron Diaz does the trope of crazy girl really well. Oh, yeah. Like she is like she's made kind of made her career on kind of being the sweetheart. Um, but the roles where she takes, where she goes complete opposite, that's where I think she thrives. She is so good. Like, I believe every second of her in this movie, where and Tom Cruise plays it so well, too, because like the second we see her, he's kind of got like he's gonna be polite and he's gonna be kind of nice about it, but he's sort of like, What are you doing here? Why are you in my room? I told you, like, like there are rules, we've talked about this. Like, he doesn't know what to do, he doesn't know how to handle her, and he's realizing in real time that he's got a stage four clinger, stage four, yeah, yeah, and he does, and watch out, yeah. Like saying, like, we made love four times, and four times means something, and she's like, I hate it when you say like you'll call me soon. And she like she's just doing so much. I mean, there's there's stuff for her there, but she is just elevating it to a whole different level.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

The way she's kissing him in the way that he's not not at all, like, yeah, we can stick with we'll stick with the party scene, or no, like in the beginning in the party scene, just their their interactions. Yeah, she's crashing the party and staying there, and then Penelope Cruz playing off that. And I I've always liked Cameron Diaz in this mode. I mean, I think the personification of like the loving girl next door in that whole vibe is best realized, and there's something about Mary. But when she goes dark like she is here, or even any given Sunday, where she is one of the few women in that movie, and she is kicking the ass of Pacino, Dennis Quaid, Jamie Foxx, like anyone she talks to. And then you just get like the complete whatever she's doing and being John Malkovich, which I think is great. And I love her. So yeah, I've always liked her, but she is man, she's Julie Gianni is starts as like this, oh, you know, this innocent thing, this maybe it is like a casual, you know, F buddy hookup thing, like no big deal. But you the stakes of it and it just keeps going. The party, like it's uncomfortable, and then when she just rolls up outside of that house on the street, man, it's terrifying. But yeah, at the party, she's still like in you know, cutesy mode, like I'm jealous, jealous girl mode.

SPEAKER_01 56:48

Oof, yeah, it's gonna change. I love when he even like he goes, You just follow me. Yeah, she's just like a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 56:57

Of course, of course she did. And she's been waiting outside the house all night. That's the only explanation.

SPEAKER_01 57:02

And then when you start to actually when she starts to say like things like where like that sentence where she's like, um, you you like the promises that you've made, and Cruz is like, promises, and she goes, When you have sex with someone, your body makes a promise, even if you don't.

SPEAKER_00 57:19

And his face is like, What is this woman talking? That's that's the his acting in this because she's she's you know, the note of being angry to the point of homicidal, and he has to keep up. But yeah, his face is like, What the fuck are you talking about, lady? And uh, here's what she's talking about.

SPEAKER_01 57:37

If if you just track like the course of cruise with her during this, it really is amazing because at first he's weirded out because he's like, Why the hell are you following me? And then she kind of lays on a little bit of that guilt. And it and it's and it's not it's to me, it's stupid, like, but it's not unreasonable, and and and so he's just literally like if you look at his body language, he's hanging on to his car for dear life, right? He he's like bending over at the door, he's like turning his back, like every bit of his body wants to run away. It is just in him, and he can't because he's engaged with her, and she's you know, it's weird, but certainly it's not gonna result in a life or death situation. It's just getting me out of this social situation that we're in. And then she's like, Well, you know, if you really want to make him happy, just go for a ride. And then he's in the car, and the awkwardness that there's one moment where he's like looking straight, like not even in the rearview mirror, but he's like his eyes are like bulging out because it's sort of like the face of someone's like, What the fuck do we do when something is so awkward? The tension is he's just playing it so well until it starts to get serious. Yep. And then like the the gears that we switch that that scene plays so well is because we go from, you know, we're probably in like second or third gear of being this uncomfortable, but then it goes all the way to literally death. Yep. You know, then from him just being like, Why don't you slow down? Like to stop the car to there, he's like physically trying to get her to stop it, and the way that he is reacting off of her, it it's just it really is it's an amazing sequence that really goes from zero to 60. He's so good in it.

SPEAKER_00 59:46

He's fantastic, and this is a more sexually frank conversation than I think anything that it he says in eyes wide shut. Like the words coming out of Cameron Diaz, like the stuff she's saying is very I we just don't we hadn't really I remember seeing this with my dad and my brother and going, Whoa, I there aren't too many like studio movies where I've heard a woman, you know, with I'm not gonna repeat it because I'm not gonna be gross. Like no, I'm not gonna say it. Everyone knows what I'm talking about. If you've seen the movie, it's that use of language that really starts to clue them into like oh shit, this is serious. And then all filmmakers, especially young ones, you need to go watch this crash sequence. They're setting up. I counted how many shots it was when it decides to cut away. But when we see the impact, the it's startling in its simplicity. It's one shot, the camera's stationary, that thing flies off the bridge. And like, I've never also never seen like a car accident in a movie quite look like that, where it's that simple and then boom hits the wall. And then the genius act, the genius decision to not cut and to see those guys like running from far away to come over. Like, it's an amazing way to shoot a crass, crash, and it's so simple, and it would not have been that expensive. I mean, that that bridge broke away, that little piece of the bridge broke away. You're gonna ruin the car, yes. But there's nothing like they didn't involve another car, they didn't, you know, they they would have had to stop a little traffic, but it's just the pragmaticism, the same way they did Times Square, it's really startling and so effective. This crash scene.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:20

And and they really did land, like I mean, because you're gonna you're only gonna get one shot at that car. And they, you know, they planned it so well to get that head-on collision where the the car literally just sandwiches. Yep. And there what makes this scene work is that it's believable that she would actually get to this level of crazy. Yeah, there could be a world where this scene doesn't work at all because you're like, what the hell? She just went crazy. Like that got that got kicked up really quick. Yeah, we believe it because of her. Yeah, like that's why Tom Cruise plays it so perfectly because some of his reaction is like this the eye literally opening your eyes to realizing I knew you were crazy. I didn't know I was dealing with this. Yeah. And it's because she does it so well that we're able to have the exact same feeling. We're we're like, we none of us thought that she could be like this, but now that we're here, we're like, she's that crazy. Yeah. Oh my god. Like when she, yeah, when she's when she's like, David, do you believe in God? Yeah, yeah. You're like, oh shit. Yeah, you're like, oh, I forgot about that. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. That's the that's the part where you're just like, and and then she's like slamming her head, and she's like, I love you, and she's slamming her head into the fucking wheel. Because she is no longer caring about the vehicle. No, not at all. Everything about it is perfect from the the editing to the performances to exactly the actual action of it, yeah, and the way that it's paced from start to finish. It's an unbelievably good sequence.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:07

And you really don't expect it because you know, he's walking out of this like high of this night with Sophia, and you've been buzz. Yeah, you got that buzz, you know, that buzz. And you know, they had their kiss and everything, everything's good. So it does, it kind of comes out of nowhere. And obviously, the movie's gonna, once the crash happens, we're gonna take some detour. So before we get into that, I just want to say that as you're watching the movie, we have these like narrative threads that we keep cutting back to, and we're in like, okay, is that Tom Cruise like in a we're in like a holding cell? Okay, and he's talking to a therapist played by Kurt Russell, and that's oh, that's funny. That's Michael Shannon as the guard. That's funny, yeah. But then why does Tom Cruise, biggest movie star in the world, have this giant mask on his face? Like, what is this? What's going on? But he's giving us backstory, you know, father died, took over the company, the seven dwarves, all that stuff. And we do learn that he's being charged with murder, and we don't know who yet. So that's also another thing that the movie throughout is having this running thread. The original does too, but it works that it never sometimes, though that narrative conceit can be a little annoying to me. Like the basically the whole movie's a flashback, and sometimes I'm like, no, don't go back. I want to stay with it. But it all works, and it it must it couldn't have been easy weaving in the pop culture and knowing when, like, you know, when is Kurt Russell's VO gonna come over? When is uh Tom Cruise's VO? It's just it's a cool narrative thread that they keep using that does pay off. And I I just want to mention that as we're going.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:39

And and the way that they link them, yeah, because it's very, very common where we do hear in the middle of whatever we're seeing, a voiceover from Kurt Russell or Tom Cruise. It's like jarring us back. Oh yeah, we're we're like this was a story, and and now we're back in like this real thread. So funny because technically we're go we're we think we're in reality, but we're not. We're going to the dream. Yep. And um, but it if that's how it's so it's why it works so well, it's because you can't play it like that. This is a real psychologist who's really uh uh trying to work with this client. Well, the the one thing I because we haven't talked a little bit about it, like as good as the uh the the Cameron Diaz and Tom Cruise scenes are, but like that that that Penelope Cruise, Tom Cruise, when they're actually spending time together and drawing, yeah. Some of that stuff, and it is like that. Is Cameron Crow being Cameron Crow cheesy Salisbury Hill playing, like, yeah, yeah, he's being cheesy, yeah. He's being cheesy, and some of Tom Cruise's lines are very silly, but man, like I still have a harder time kind of trying to think of a better sequence where where we did talk about it, but this. idea of two people that are in act they are actively falling in love with each other. Love at first sight. They just met. Yep. And the and the way that he's being charming, but the way that he's that she's surprising him. Like he he literally is like it's like he is meeting a person he has never met before and they are like he's constantly being blown away by this other human being. Like and and I love the the moment where he where they are doing the drawing and she uh kind of makes a silly picture of him. Carac yeah the caricature and he's made something very beautiful and and he's kind of got that moment where she's like okay now let me see yours and he doesn't want to want to show it. Embarrassed yeah yeah he's a he's embarrassed but he's got he puts his like like hand in his hair and he's just sort of like oh god I don't want to go into this next part you know it there there's just there there's nothing else going on it's so alive. Yeah movies try so hard to get you to fall in love with the people that are falling in love. Yeah and we always just completely just we buy into it enough because the story wants us to and we can't really move on without it. So it's very much they we get it they like each other. But this is this is a really good example of a movie where if you really want to see a good example of two people really falling in love and you can see it happening this is one this is one movie where it's really great at that it is it's very believable and I like that their their intimacy only goes as far as a kiss.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:48

Like they don't have sex and this is their only night together I mean they will see each other a few more times but it doesn't go well and oh no I do like that that it doesn't go like that far. Even her saying you're not staying over like I I just I believe all of that and I believe all of it and he's like okay okay like I see what this is we can you know watch a little TV. That's another little thread that he's sneaking in there little Benny the dog stuff Benny that we don't think we don't think necessarily matters yet but oh will it ever but yeah the alive is a really good phrase because with every person even when he's arguing with Michael Shannon or like doing this you know hands in the air whatever man with Kurt Russell like that time when he does like that little surfer thing and like the dance and you're like whoa this is it's all what we're saying about it's very lived in performance from Mr.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:39

Cruz here but yeah after the wreck this is you know we wake up and it's a Central Park dream the only thing I really have to say about this is he has a um he has a line my dreams are a cruel joke they taunt me and I re-watch it for this I was like oh my god that used to be like my standard aim away message like no way really it's fucking loser I used to say that all the time uh poor little me yeah so I just oh that's hilarious yeah I love that I love that but yeah of course we're in like this dream and then boom it I you know and I can't wake up I love that and then he he wakes up and and it is also good too because like we are like still like in a very real world of a narcissist yeah because that dream in that Central Park thing and the way that he continues to see her once we do enter the dream it is of course it's all what he wants and needs it to be and none of it is actually real. Right. And that's why I love that look that he gives like she's just like jumping on him and kissing him and he's trying to put it together but he's can't and then he just looks off yeah he's just it's just great great scene but yeah and then and then we and then we uh I'll never forget this this this was something to me like when I first saw it and I saw his face I I was just I I was like what the fuck am I watching?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:11

Oh it's done yeah when we like cut to him and he's like on the computer and then we just cut and you're like whoa okay I yeah absolutely had no idea that was coming I don't think a lot of people did I really and I think that it was a big turnoff for people.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:27

And so you're watching a guy trying to figure out what he's gonna do and you get the stuff where he's you know putting together work stuff you know he's having like the zoom before the zoom calls and then he puts up enough courage to go and reunite with Sophia could have could have a phone call would probably be a better way to start you know I would think you know yeah nice little like hey how you doing or or something I would I would like to come see you but instead he you know stalks her down follows her outs her out I love when she's in the street and like stops her two friends with the salad fork and I mean she's just so talk about a lived in actress Chanel de Cruz my god just a girl with her salad going to the dance studio and she knows people around town.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:16

I love it. Sweetheart everyone loves her damn right everyone loves Sophia but yeah the reunion like she handles it I I like this scene much more in in this version than in open your eyes because I just I do like the sentimentality of it and how she's you would be shocked if you saw someone like that but you also don't want your face to read as one of horror so you can see her trying to and then he just keeps making jokes which is really unexpected and it's like okay you know let's let's go out sometime or something.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:45

Yeah. When we get to this part of the way he handles his face socially with people is this is where he is not afraid at all to dive into the most cringe worthy depths. So many other actors I feel like especially in ones of his position wouldn't want to go into this level of creepiness right not even trying to be he's not trying to be but what because what he's trying to do is why it's such an honest sort of thing is he's trying to go back to what worked before and show that nothing's different. Yeah because he doesn't want it to be so and that's where we get that the the cringe part of it and yeah because he's making jokes and that's where you see her not know how to deal with it because she is trying to not look horrified because not even just because it's a shock. Yeah I haven't seen you since the night we fell in love with each other for one night yep and no call no anything now I understand why you didn't call me but we now that you're here like she plays it so well everything is going on it's and this is only gonna progress when we get to the nightclub yep oh my god the the meowing oh my god it's just it's uh like well so so basically and when he gets to this club he is you know Jason Lee is there because we find out that she very I mean uh I would too like very like like was like I would like someone else with me. Yeah I need a third wheel I need a chaperone yeah yeah and he shows up in a mask yep Penelope Cruz does such a good job of balancing she's like she can't even be there.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:40

Yeah she just wants to be out she's not like the mask is on he's getting trashed he's saying untoward things Tom Cruise yeah and so and she this basically is sort of like I'm gonna leave you to handle him I'm gonna go and run away yep yeah and then Tom Cruise gets drunk and you know and and we've never really seen like at this point like in Tom Cruise's kind of like personality in in any sort of way like some of these like these things that like the way that he's kind of dancing and like these outbursts that he's having at the bar where he's just like like head bobbing with yeah head bobbing he's not a very convincing drunk actor he's plays drunk and goofy and Jer Jared McGuire in one scene but he's really like good at just going for it here and you know I love um W Earl Brown as the bartender like this one's on the house. Oh yeah why just is bitch and then you see like they kind of start vibing there's doing shots and yeah Cruz is like slamming on the bar and like bouncing with the music and spacing off he and then the you know the bathroom thing and he thinks that's funny what the guy says over the bathroom and then he's just like yeah like out of his mind and drunk and I really really like this scene and it's a very atypical scene for Cruz we don't really see him so what we're talking about with the whole damn movie the whole performance.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:03

The whole performance and I and I really do like that we get that cutaway where he's in the bathroom because that is like a very like it it it we don't need it but but it is the one time that we are actually getting the fear and the reality of what the outside world thinks of us if we look like that. Fix your fucking face your fucking face what a what an asshole yeah it's just a horrible thing to say but yeah and and that's and we don't really have that up until we we understand from Penelope Cruz and Jason Lee and Tom Cruise's own internalized fears of what this looks like but this is the only time we actually really get the some of that outside public uh um criticism to say the least um and um and then yeah and then Cruz dances up to Sophia he's trying to recreate the moment of watching Cameron Diaz watching them from the party like literally line by line and he's like moving around her to kind of like really recreate it and it's just he's doing everything wrong and it's so hard to watch and but because it's also it's just it's so honest oh this scene just gets me and and and Penelope can barely keep it together and then she tries to this I one thing I love is uh she says that line of like I'll tell you in another life when you and I are both cats Cruz just has like this pause and he's like I can't believe you just said that to me you know and that's he's like cats like I know it's when he starts like meowing I'm like what the hell but no he's charmed that she said that but yeah he's charmed but you know what I thought about with this meowing was fucking her private smell oh sm I always say smell sorry oh yes I didn't like that movie at all her private hell which you ended up liking but that whole meow sequence I was like what the fuck is going on with this movie uh it reminded me of that but yes it's very strange well I'll say I'll say I'll say this one the the meow was much more grounded in a uh in a in a in a place of it's believable that a guy in this state and going on the kind of like momentum that he has in being completely socially uh not present would start meowing.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:38

Yeah I agree for this movie. Yes for this one yeah not some the other one but yeah this night does not go I know you did I know we could talk about it later not on this spot on a Patreon episode. Oh okay well I was I was gonna say I was gonna tease it for something but but we'll continue. Yeah the night doesn't go well you know people are running off they this is when he brings up when he confronts Jason Lee about Jason Lee the you know the fuck buddy comment he goes to sleep you know it's it's a funny movie to talk about because when you've seen it a bunch of times you know what happens when he wakes up but the first time watching it I was like okay so we're just in a dream here because clearly that sky is you know CGI it's I get it's meant to look like the Monet the vanilla sky and all that she's being super nice to like is this a dream like what and even with the you know the cute uh album cover walk the Bob Dylan walk and all that stuff we're still and you know oh I could live in this mole on the bed forever it's just setting up all this shit and it's gonna that it's gonna trick us to be you know watch what that mole means coming up but then like they're in the cafe and Noah Taylor's just like staring at him. He's like who the fuck is this guy? But he's not acting on it yet I I love all this stuff right before the nightmare takes hold and you know it's gonna take hold very soon.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:56

This is actually like one of those sort of like parts of any movie where the rewatchability actually makes it better. Yeah because some things that are happening are are a little bit like too like like could be considered a little bit too far fetched. Like the way that she just shows back up in the morning they it's it's definitely like doable to make if you don't know that we're now in a dream that she is sort of like you know what I thought about it and and and she and Penelope Cruz plays it so well too like I love I don't know if they have that in the original but I love that line of where she was sort of like but if this goes badly basically I have the ability to fall out of love of you like that. Yeah like that line is the one thing that kind of grounds it in not being like what are we doing? Are we in a dream like it there's like a sort of like oh she's just this amazing of a person. Right. But then yeah and then and even the way that Jason Lee like they're friends all of a sudden now he's everything her the doctors are all like we have this miracle drug surgery like everything's gonna work out.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:04

What's up my brother the way it says that you're like what the fuck it's perfect though it's perfect.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:12

It's perfect. He's singing in the operation it horribly and the doctor's like he's got a good voice. Yeah but when you realize that it is a dream and when you're watching it again it's just so perfect because you're like well this is everything he would ever want.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:26

Exactly he doesn't want to take responsibility for the ways that he's treated his friend and he just wants his friend to just accept kind of blindly yeah they take off they bring the you know cruise it's time to take off the mask they take it off there's no problem she's nervous she's kissing him all over like everything's everything's fine there's nothing wrong going on perfect.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:49

This is the dream it's exactly what he signed a signed a contract for. Yep and you signed a contract and did you sign a contract with these people I love the way Kurt Russell plays that whole entire fucking thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:04

Yeah so you know but then we start getting some uh some glitches we yeah we do get some glitches because you know he just goes asleep and wakes up and it ain't Sophia now Julie's in bed and it's the whole argument. And again the spinning out thing like he's going crazy Cameron Diaz is playing it in a way that like you could believe that that is still Penelope Cruz and that like he's just imagining something switching his brain where he's imagining because she's like no I'm Sophia and then when she starts you know laughing maniacally and you're like what the what is going on like this is crazy and then the damn oh man in the police station that's such a good reveal like the pictures and it's like that's Sophia and he's like no this isn't and all the spinning out we talked about the argument with Jason Lee I love that and then kind of brings us up to like our second Noah Taylor in a bar sequence and this is when things are get revealed of like not everything is what you think it is with the everyone's I would like everyone to shut the fuck up and it just stops. It's perfect. It's a great little movie trick but I love Noah Taylor I love his whole just his whole disposition in the movie like I've been through this before okay yeah it's fine David you just you know I I love it but I love that bar scene so much everything just stops but yeah the to talk about that murder sequence and we did touch on it again the um the editing of that scene where Cruz is just fucking losing it.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:34

Okay yeah so not not when he's tying her up in bed but when she's when they're having sex yeah yeah oh my with the pillow and everything and then I mean he's Tom like okay again I'm gonna use some language I don't normally use but like Tom Cruise the actor thrusting in a sex scene out of anger is not something we've ever seen from him before like it's crazy and it's crazy wild scene man it's wild and and we have been up until this point we are aware that there's a murder yeah we don't know who we don't know how but we do know at this point that he has abused physically Sophia yes in whatever context you want to look at it so he has laid hands on her and to the point where she's in the hospital but we still don't have this murder we still don't know how this man in this mask with Kurt Russell has been accused of murder and when we get this reuniting where he just miraculously sees her and they're making love and then all of a sudden Juliana shows up again and yes Tom Cruise's performance in this one scene is is his and it is most unhinged he's ever been but then you've also got Cameron Crow doing these edits of his whole entire life yeah like the seven dwarves his parents you get these these needle drops of like Joe and Osborne's What If God was one of us which by the way deep deep fact fun fact about Nick that's one of my all-time favorite songs from the 90s love it like and especially how it kind of crescendos through like this maddening of these splicing of these images Cameron Diaz laughing but then like being in pain and Tom Cruise just thrusting and then there's but it's also like it's also kind of like like they've edited it a little bit so it's like out of tune like because it's a breaking it's it's just a really fucking well edited piece of business because then it goes into a different song and then we see him pull the pillow can we still be friends yeah and he sees the mole oh my god and now we're putting together oh this is the murder but I was shocked I still am every time because that the way that that pillow comes in it's it's uh it's a it's creepy because it's it's a soft movement it's not like he just like throws it on her it's just like he doesn't know what to do and here is this way of just placing a pillow and then just and then well yep he fucking kills her he suffocates her and yeah then he sees the mole and then he runs off running out yeah running his face is all messed up again you know what is happening yeah running away and that basically it like stops the nightmare and then for pretty much the rest of it we're gonna be back with McCabe that's Kurt Russell and we have this uh it's about 35 30 35 minutes of a conclusion here now it's really cool you know who is who is Ellie like you've been saying this name like who is Ellie and then he you know Kurt they have he has his final monologue his final send off like I can't help you you know that whole thing he leaves David spots it on the TV he's pounding I love the cut to them what him escorting Kurt Russell escorting Tom Cruise and the music's going and they're just storming out of the jail you know out of the prison and we're gonna go to LE like what what is this whole thing?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:16

So I wanted to ask have you seen the alternate ending to Vanel Sky or did you know one exists? I know one exists but I have never seen it. I had never I'd seen it once it's on you know I really explored there's deleted scenes there's an alternate ending this isn't like they adjusted a few things it's the last 30 minutes are significantly different. Like he runs away he's gonna end up on the roof all that yes but it is because it doesn't really work to me and it it was what they shot first and what they tested and people did not like it. And Cameron Crow's talking a lot like oh yeah I I'm I'm sad we miss this I'm sad we miss this it doesn't work to me to wear I don't know if we'd be talking about the movie if he kept this ending. The conversations on the roof are basically the same. There's like a five minutes from when he leaves the office to before he gets in the elevator with Noah Taylor. That's different and it's different in a way that's bigger that I don't like so I just didn't all by way of saying the stuff that they reshot and redid, I think it works much better. It's much simpler it was much crazier originally so people go check that out when you're done with Vanilla Sky. You know go back and see little changes they made but I just love the ending of this movie. Like I just love it. I love good vibrations coming on I love Tilda Swinton explaining it all to us like you mentioned Kurt Russell not buying any of it you sign a contract these people David and you know running around and I want to wake up and then kind of the elevator ride of explanation where we're just going up up up not only does it I really work for me but the thing that kind of set me off on getting emotional this time because this is before you know he jumps the That suicide scene is startlingly real. I get chills bringing it up. Like we're really and he's showing it in these fragments and like the little wave to himself and the mixing of the pills. Like I've been, it's gotten black for me sometimes, like in my personal life. And I was watching this going, man, like they just no one gave Cruz the credit that he deserved for this. Like he's tapping into something there. I know it's really quick, but when he's in that shitty hotel motel room dying by suicide, it's powerful. So I just I just love the whole thing. And then you know, the funeral, like Jason Lee's there and just gives the little polite wave to Penelope Cruz who's crying but can't come in. It's really beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:40

I love it. It really is, and it and it's one of those ones where it's really easy for this to not work. Very easy, yes. Everything else was handled so well, but you are looking at 30 minutes of an explanation for this whole entire movie. And generally that never works because you're you've gone on too much of a mind fuck to and then you're like, oh now we're all just gonna get it at the end. But it's it's in the way of like I I again like a life lived. We're getting this explanation, but it almost sort of kind of feels like we're getting like a uh like a like a what's that movie that uh that that that everyone talks about that I've never seen, but I know all about it, where uh Jimmy Stewart, it's a wonderful film.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:26

It's wonderful life, yeah. Great film.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:28

Yeah. Where where because I understand like enough about it. Trust me. I know, I know, I would.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:34

He I we re-talk I reclaimed that movie because I was always like, I don't get it. When I rewatched it, I was like, this is an extremely effective portrayal of someone with suicidal ideation, and it is like it it's very honest, it's a very honest movie, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:49

I think because this ties in, because if it was just a dream, I don't know if we'd get the payoff, but if we understand that he actually died and that that life that he lived was over, there's like a certain way where now it deepens everything, and I think that's why this works so well, because it would be very easy to kind of like, oh, he's just in a dream, he needs to wake up. It's not big enough. No, to know that he actually like it got so bad for him that he decided to do this. Uh I think that's why it works. But going to that hotel scene, I think you're absolutely right. And there's also this brilliant tiny edit. It's uh Tom Cruise, he's he's that wave is like really, really disturbing into the reflection of the mirror. But uh he he's struggling to stand. Oh, I love this shot. Oh my god. And then and he barely gets to his knees and then falls again, and the fall onto the ground, and it's not a huge fall, like it's literally from his knees back to the ground, but they just splice in a shot of the head-on collision from the car. And just like just to kind of like echo that moment. So it's like his fall to the ground with his crash, like it's just right there. And it's like it, it I mean, this whole entire what I'm talking about is less than three seconds.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:18

Oh, yeah, it's a quick, but it that is the most memorable shot of the suicide to me, is when he just he like he's so fucked up he can't stand. That's you know, and he just falls back down, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:30

And they and they just splice that that uh collision with it. It it's just it it's like little things like that where that's something that's happening in the edit room. It's like, what if when he falls, we throw in that extra like for that moment that the car crash, and it's like it's perfect, it's a perfect idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:47

Yeah, the I mean all of it, and then we get up to the roof, and this is when it's really explained to us that yeah, you you did die, and you signed a contract with us before, so we we have you on ice, you chose this lucid dream, and it yeah, so sorry about that, it kind of turned into a nightmare. Don't worry, we're not gonna charge you for technical sport. Yeah, he's given a really cool kind of option here. Do you want to stay in your lucid dream? You could you can be with Sophia, you can be with anyone, like we can do whatever. Or do you want to wake up in the future? It's 150 years later, everyone you've ever met is dead, your money's not gonna last long, but your face will be fixed because of technological advances. So, what do you want? And it's I don't know, it's just kind of a it's a really cool thought to kind of go down, which also ties into what as an individual viewer we think happens. But I I like that concept a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:40

Well, I I like it too, and it and it's it's a very strange one too, because even kind of like not, you know, bringing it back to your brother, but this movie does a very strange thing to me, it like where you know, someone who is suicidal, they are weighing that for themselves. Yeah, they are weighing whether or not it's better to go off into the unknown but not live anymore in what's currently happening. So here we have got a man who's living in a dream and can choose how to live any way he wants. And it's between that going back to the real world, and by doing going back, the you know, jumping off of of a of a building. Yeah. So it's this sort of weird mind fuck into the reversal of how something like suicide kind of starts to manifest in your brain and what the realities are, how you actually leave and how you actually stay. And this movie is kind of like throwing it all up, but doing it with a very, very hopeful and purposeful, you know, intention, which I think is honestly like to me, what I kind of get from it is that you know, fantasy is always just gonna be fantasy. Yep. And and it's kind of hard to come back from it. Like you like once you know that it's all not real, it doesn't become desirable anymore. Yeah, exactly. So you'd rather you'd rather see what what the reality is like. Now, I also do have a take, is my pessimistic side of things, and I love that they actually put this in here because like when we first are introduced to Benny and the dog, my favorite part of this is like they comment on how Benny the Dog isn't exactly all there.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:43

Yeah, like he is all he is awake now, isn't he?

SPEAKER_01 1:34:46

Yeah, yeah, like he's like he doesn't really seem like he's all there and the dog's just staring off into nothing. He's like, Well, yeah, you know, sometimes you know he's got a little bit of things are a little slow for Benny, and all I can think of is that like when Tom Cruise wakes up from this, like he's basically gonna be like a weird vegetable, like he's alive, but he's just like, oh well, hopefully, okay, I I I hear that, but Benny the dog is like in the year 2000, and now we're in the year 2021 50.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:17

So hopefully, yeah, they have hopefully Noah Taylor is telling the truth. Like, we've made a lot of technological advances, but your money's not gonna last long, and you know, yeah, but hey, take care. I have always thought, just for me, oh, I also gotta say, adding in the nothing song by Sigor Roos, if that's how you say it. Oh god, that song, it just that song kills me too. It's so good, just like personally. So, yeah, I have always been I believe what Noah Taylor says. I when I watch the movie, I believe that he wakes up in the future, open your eyes. It's you know, he's alive now in the future, and you know what, whatever. If he was uh in his 30s, now you know he's gonna live the rest of his life. And I kind of I like that. I I do think he made the right decision. Like, I need to get out of this dream, and kind of says that to Penelope Cruz, you know, their little yeah reunion in so many ways, and it's just it's a really good ending, and it just ends. That's uh genius. Like his eyes are really bright, and then we don't even cut to black, we just cut immediately immediately to written for the screen and directed by Cameron Crow. Boom.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:20

And there is something that's like sort of beautiful and fucked up too about him as his goodbye to Penelope Cruz, yeah, because you realize what he's saying goodbye to is his his idea of what he wants her to be. Like that's all she ever was because this was his dream. So he's saying goodbye to fiction, basically. Yeah, but it's meant everything to him. Like this idea of her is and love and all of this. Like, it's so it's so it that's why this movie's such a great mindfuck in so many great ways, is because like this has been his everything, but it turns out that this quest he had is not none of it's even real. And that and Kurt Russell, that's one of my favorite line deliveries ever, is when you know tech support is basically telling him, Well, of course, Kurt Russell's character is gonna be fighting you on this, is because he's a construct of your mind. Fighting for his existence, and he goes, No, I'm real. I I'm real, I'm real. I'm really I am like it's just it's so well.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:35

It's the hammer line of I have I have two daughters. What are their names? It's just perfect. It's you know, can answer because the the can answer you know, your your data never got that far. Yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:46

Your data never got that far, which is also then another thing, too. Like, you think about AI right now, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:52

Yeah, it's that's why I think the movie holds up very well.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:55

It does, it really, really does. And and because that's what you realize in a weird way, that's what you're kind of dealing with here, yeah, in that way. So, yeah, it's it I mean, it really is like there, there's so uh I'm gonna be very curious to watch both the ending of Open Your Eyes and to look at all these deleted or alternate endings because I do think however we got to the ending that's here, this is an amazing ending. Yeah, I think so too. And it's and for all the conversations we're able to have that bounce off of it, like there's just so much to talk about with the ending, but it ultimately is, I think, like it's and it's also the best Cameron Crow like type ending. Cameron Crow's gonna want to always end with hope, and um, and and then we get that.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:41

And I love, you know, we I haven't brought up this thread in a while, but the pop culture stuff, like bringing in all that again, and like, you know, when you were talking to McCabe, that reminded you of To Kill a Mockingbird. When you were walking with Penelope Cruz, that reminded you of the Bob Dylan album cover, and you know, talking about the Beatles, all that stuff. It just all it all really plays and it makes me watching it now in 2026. I go, man, it it's kind of weird that this ending was such a miss, and the movie was such a miss to so many people who saw it. Never for me. I've always really, really liked the movie, and a lot of critics went to bat for it like right away. So there were there were a few, a stronghold of a few, but yeah, it's dozens of us, dozens. I had a little prompt in here where we don't have to rank or anything. I just want to know in general, like where this stands in terms of Cameron Crowe's filmography, where it stands. I I don't think I might like Jerry Maguire a little more, but this is definitely the funkiest movie Crow has made. I think a lot of people would say almost famous is their favorite, but I still this is this is probably two for me. Jaron Maguire might be one, but I I rate it very highly.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:47

I was gonna say, like, I I it it would have it would have very much surprised me if this would be more for you for Jerry Maguire, because I know how much Jerry Maguire means to you personally. Yeah, I love that movie. And um, yeah, exactly. That that's like that's a big one for you. So I like if we were on like one of those uh dating shows where they're like how much well do you know your partner and you're like favorite Cameron Crow, like if you would have said vanilla sky, I would have wrote Jerry Maguire. And I've been like, You're a fucking liar. So for you, if we're on the game, I would say we bought a zoo, is that right? No, no, no, it would it would it's it's by far this. Oh, it is this is my big yeah, this is my favorite Cameron Crow.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:24

Yeah, I I Jared Maguire is not like by far, it's I mean, these two are right. The if we're given grades, I'd probably give them the same grade, honestly. So they're right, they're right there. I Jared Maguire as a movie is not that big of a swing. They we just used to make more movies like that. Vanilla Sky in any year is a huge swing, so I always appreciate that. And what Tom Cruise is doing in Vanilla Sky, I think is a bit more well, I'll say certainly more risky than what he's doing in Jerry Maguire's. So I I mean for him, yeah, it's all that Jerry Maguire, eyes wide shut, magnolia, this I collateral, those are like my top-tier crews. And then when we then I start having fun, like, yeah, I'll do Tropic Thunder, I can slide that in there. I love him in color of money. I I've always been a fan of it. Like, I love him in the firm. I mean, I've all I've always I love Lieutenant Daniel Caffey. You're a lousy fucking softball player, Jack.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:21

Yeah, few good men, baby. Yeah, fugan men. No, I and and I think I think Cameron Crow has a good way to use him because again, they're not dissimilar types of characters with Jerry Maguire and here because we were positing Tom Cruise as a winner, yeah, an absolute winner. That like there's a there's because there's even like a certain smugness that Jerry Maguire has, you know, like like both David Ames and Jerry Maguire walk into any room in the beginnings of their respective movies, and they are the cock of the water.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:59

They're the king, baby.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:00

Oh, yeah. So I think I think Cameron Crow has a good sense of how to kind of take those attributes that Tom Cruise has and use them so well. So that that fall from grace is uh because I think in a lot of ways, like I that's why I think that picture of Penelope Cruise that she does of Tom Cruise, like the big smile. And like I think that in a lot of ways, too, is how a lot of people view Tom Cruise, especially at that time. Like the the criticism for Tom Cruise back in the day was when we're talking even before all of like some of the more personal things that have come up. We're just talking about Tom Cruise being an actor and being the biggest star. There's always been a criticism of him just being like he's got it all. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's just sort of like, I don't really care about Tom Cruise because what am I gonna watch? Another fucking movie with Tom Cruise winning. And I think that's why, like, it like even at the time, like I remember thinking that too, like when he sees that picture of himself and he goes, Oh, that's well, yeah, okay. All right, that's how you see me. Get that before. Yeah, yeah. That's not a first. Uh good.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:15

Vanilla Sky. It was a lot of fun to talk about and talk about in this in this way. We and because we already talked about like what happened when it was released. It made money because movie stars could still open even weird movies like this in December, but it was not that well liked. It got one Oscar nomination. Paul McCartney's title song, Vanilla Sky, was nominated for Best Song. It was beaten by If I Didn't Have You from Monsters Inc. by Randy Newman. And I'm only mentioning that because Randy Newman had been nominated for like 14 Oscars and had never won. And they like had to give it to him. It was you gotta do it. It was a sad thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:52

Was was was Diane Warren gonna get one?

SPEAKER_00 1:43:55

She, oh, she has a song at a big movie this year, I think. I think it's in theaters now. The this new Mark Wahlberg one. What is it by any means? So, but I'm saying, like, at least that's a movie we've heard of. So if she's nominated, maybe if she has a shot, I don't know, maybe she has a shot.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:11

So someone's just gotta make it the mission to get that woman. How many, how many nominations does she have?

SPEAKER_00 1:44:16

She, yeah, she's up there 14, 15. It's something. I I don't even know what that what that thing is anymore. They she must just have agents who because the movie she's nominated for, no one's ever heard of. Like best song, a best song from oh my god, she was nominated this year. There you'll be for Pearl Harbor music and lyrics by Diane Ward. Holy shit, I was just looking over the nominations. Oh, that's hilarious. Uh Sting was nominated that year, too. Look at that. What a what a fine year for Caitlin Leopold. Randy, Randy Newman won. Yep, yes, he did. You got a friend in me. Um, Golden Globes and the Screen Actors Guild nominated Cameron Diaz for supporting actress. I thought that was kind of cool. I didn't realize that you're gonna love this, not you're gonna the Razzies nominated Penelope Cruz for worst actress for this. That doesn't make any sense. Listen to this, man, for all of her 2001 performances, which was Vanilla Sky, Captain Corelli's Mandolin, and Blow. Blow. So for all three of those, they nominate her for worst actress. That's absurd. That is so dumb when they do that stuff. So dumb. When I saw that, I went. She's I I mean, Captain Corelli's Mandolin's a dog shit film, but she's very good in those other two movies. You guys are off your rocker.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:38

She's just a good actor. Like, yeah, that's like I mean, there's a I could I I would actually be fine in a world where because if you because if you just think that this movie's dumb, and I'm sure there's a lot of people, especially at the time, that probably did just think this was a dumb movie, it's it would be very easy to nominate Tom Cruise for a Razzie. Because if you think the movie's dumb, then all of his little outbursts and all of his you know physicalities and mannerisms, which by the way, we didn't even talk about that. His physicality to his limp and to the way that he holds his arm, all that's very believable. That's another very believable. But if you were, like, I would almost understand, I could wrap my head around a weird Razzie nomination for him more than Penelope Cruz. Me too. Me too. Like that doesn't that doesn't even make sense. Like that, like, yeah, it's it's the same thing as like Jack Nicholson being nominated for The Shining as a Razzie. It's like, okay, yeah. I mean, if you think that movie's dumb, then you think then that performance is probably dumb. I could understand that same logic here, but but but Penelope Cruz ain't no Shelly Duvall.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:48

No, they need to step into my world and watch when they do this, they need to watch more damn movies. I can find you a worse actress performance from 2001 than that. I mean, cut me a break. But yeah, I just I got a kick out of it. I had no recollection of that. So in my research, when I found that, I was like, well, that's a little far-fetched to me. All right. What are you watching? We're here. You got anything special for us?

SPEAKER_01 1:47:14

Well, this is gonna be a movie that I had talked to you about. Um, but uh, I I know that it's probably not in a lot of people's theaters. Um, but uh I very recommend The Wrong Girls with Kristen Stewart and Aliashaki.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:31

Oh, okay, good, good. Yeah, well, okay, yeah, keep going. This is nowhere near me, but hopefully it this has to be on like streaming soon. Has to be, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:41

But yeah, this was a movie that I um saw a YouTube trailer for it, and I and I was like, oh, it's a stoner movie with Kristen Stewart and Alia Shawcat. I and I was watching the trailer, I go, Yeah, I'm absolutely gonna watch this. This is probably gonna be a lot of fun. I had an absolute blast with this movie, and uh I didn't even partake in any sort of a situation. I had a cup of coffee. I'm a fan of the stoner movie genre. Me too. I, you know, even going all the way back to Reefer Madness, you know, Dude Wears My Car, um just all of that stuff. Like you can absolutely tell that this movie is in the vein of all those things, but it's doing its own thing. But most importantly, the thing that always has to work with this are the dynamics between the two main characters. Yeah. Fans of us on the podcast know that Alex and I, we will always go to bat for Kristen Stewart. That's one of our uh what are you watching uh faves? I've had a hard time not saying that this is my favorite performance she's ever done because I love it. The reason why I say it is because this feels like her. A lot of she gets a lot of criticism um that I disagree with wholeheartedly for any performance. Like her, I loved her performance of um uh Princess Diana, uh Clouds of Silveria's. I mean, um I even um liked her a lot in that last uh Cronenberg movie.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:16

Oh, she was actually good. Yeah, Crimes of the Future. I didn't know you were solved. Yeah, she was good at that. And he was like, I want you to be weird, and she uh capital did that. She's very weird. I I mean Love Lies Bleeding, I like that. I like her in everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:30

Yeah, I like her in everything. But this is like the one where I feel like you know, we're we're getting like the kind of rebellious in your face, fuck you, Kristen Stewart, that she is no like issue in showing like in like her real life. And she just kills it. She's amazing, and Alia Shockett is great as well. There's a lot of really fun other side roles that show up, um, but I think. You'd have a blast with it, and um, I mean it's not like the greatest thing ever made, but I I highly recommend it. I gave it a B.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:07

Well, this is uh another thing, too, that I always I try to say on the pod or just to my friends all the time if I'm going to see a stoner flick called The Wrong Girls, I ain't expecting the best movie ever made. I want to laugh a few times, and yeah, you know, I'll probably go in uh or watch it under the state of mind that the characters are in. And if that time if as the if the hour and 39 minutes passes by, fine. That is for a movie like this, that is the only thing I'm asking for. Just make the time pass well, and it sounds like it will. So she Kristen Stewart wrote the screenplay, co-wrote the screenplay with her wife because she's married to Dylan Meyer, and Meyer directed it. So that's right. Okay, so this is I didn't even know that it makes me want to see it more. So some of this like stuff you're feeling from Kristen Stewart's performance has to be the you know, the safety of like your part you're making this movie with your partner, with your spouse. Yeah, that's really cool. Okay, I'm I wanna I do, I really want to see it. And you uh we're speaking glowingly. It says it came out on August 14th and was released by Neon. Uh yeah, Neon. It that wasn't if it was near me, I I never caught wind of it, and I obsess I'm on AMC AB, Alibo app, and Fandango. That's like my safe space. I go on those all the time just to see, like, hey, is you know, double indemnity playing or whatever, like is something playing that I don't know about. So I that one missed me, but yeah, you can rent it a few places for $14.99 given that Neon released it. That'll probably drop on Hulu for free if you have Neon or if you have Hulu in the near future, because they have a deal with Neon.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:45

Yeah, they do.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:46

And I like Neon stuff. I'm at the point where Neon is like the new A24 for me. I'll watch a Neon movie just because it's Neon. Because I'm like, you guys, you you don't have any problem like putting out different shit. And I doesn't mean I'm gonna love all of it, but I'll appreciate it. I appreciate the swing at any rate.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:04

Yeah, and they and and and they don't seem to kind of like I mean, who knows what'll happen in the future. Um, but like you know, that was the thing with A24, even back in the day when we did an A24 episode, was that A24 was cool with not being the prestige necessarily. Yeah, Neon doesn't seem to care about that. Like they though the Neon does get some prestige type of uh, you know, uh they won an Oscar. They they released a Nora.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:31

They have that's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:32

Like they got their Oscar, yeah. And they haven't kind of changed their mission statement with just kind of putting out like the shit that is as close to indie as you're ever gonna fucking get.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:42

That's why I like them, because they're still embracing that in indie sentiment and not just because we like relish and talk about the indie movement of the late 80s and 90s with such you know reverence, it doesn't mean they were all good, like there's just a bad ones, but I just like seeing the different I like the styles, I like the the swings. So cool. I will definitely watch this in the near future. I'm not gonna pay 15 bucks to see it when I'm just not going to. Like, I don't pay that much to see movies because I have you know plus AMC.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:13

The most that I like I've got no problem renting a movie on Amazon for $3.99. I'll do that, yeah. That that not not a problem with that, but $14.99, it's a bit much for yeah, especially knowing these new movies in a movie like this, it's going to be on streaming.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:30

I can wait. I I'm not like, you know, I can wait the month or the six weeks it's gonna take for it to be out there, but I will keep my eye on it and I'm sure it'll get brought up at some point, you know, even as like an honorable mention as we go throughout the year. Cool, good choice.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:44

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:44

As as I was gonna bring up her private hell, but I was I'll save that one. Okay, you can save it. I have it, yeah. We're gonna do on Patreon an entire just W A Y W episode where you know we save our recommendations for the end of episodes, but I'm like, we've both been watching stuff, let's just put them all together, and it's gonna it's not gonna be organized, it's gonna be very, you know, freewheeling like this conversation about vanilla sky was. So that'll be fun. Stay tuned for that. But I have that I've had a list and I have that one on it because I want you to tell us about that again and the invite. I want you to update us on that because you saw that again, and yeah, so stuff like that. My recommendation, I went through. I can't believe I've gone the entire pod given everything we've talked about without saying a name. Without question, the biggest influence on Cameron Crow as a director is the great director Billy Wilder, who made a great number of films that I love and adore with all my heart. He really wanted Billy to play that uh the mentor character in Jared McGuire that he keeps cutting to, and he gives him the final line, you know, I love my wife. I love my life. That guy, I love that guy, Dickie something, but Billy wouldn't do it. And Billy Wilder has made, again, a lot of my favorite films, Sunset Boulevard, staring at a poster of it. He made a movie that I love so much, I just got a screenshot of it tattooed on my fucking arm. Everyone, I want you to go watch Double Integrity from 1944. It is a great film, considered by many to be the first official film noir. There were some others before, but it is like the announcement of here we are. It's got everything you want. It's got just the dupe, you know, in the in the middle of it all who thinks he's running everything. It's got this revolving narrative where it, you know, kind of the whole movie's in flashback, and oh, does it have a femme fatel second to none? Barbara Stanwyck is the great Phyllis Dietrichson. Oh my god, I love that movie. So everyone go watch it. I want everyone to watch Double Indemnity. It's a really good old movie. It's an old movie, black and white, fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:44

It it it is it is such a good movie that like that this is like one of those ones where yeah, I like I like your enthusiasm about it because like you know, trying to sell some people on a black and white movie, yeah, that's from 1944. Yeah, I get it. I get it. This movie is stands the test of time. This is one of those like movies where you'll watch it and be like, oh wow, I think I I like movies from this time.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:09

Yeah, and I mean you can do it's hard to do any better than a double feature of double indemnity and Billy Wilde Wilder Sunset Boulevard. They're both great LA movies. It's just a lot of I love seeing the city at that time. Like they're both shot right there in the city. A lot of fun to watch. So that was my recommendation. It's I wanted to recommend uh I didn't know I was gonna do that, but yeah, Billy Wilder, very important to Cameron Crow. Go. I hope you know people are watching or rewatching Vanilla Sky. I hope they're gonna go watch some Billy Wilder, some stoner comedies. Some just go, baby. W A Y W Podcast.com Tech support. Yeah, if you need some tech support for this podcast, w a y w podcast.com. If you want to, you know, give us a few bucks a month, but then also dictate a little bit about what we cover on Patreon, patreon.com slash W A Y W is where you will find us. But as always, thanks for listening and happy watching. Thanks again for listening. Visit waywpodcast.com for everything. You can write to us, donate, buy our merch, and join our Patreon. What are you watching? Bonus features is available at patreon.com slash WAYW. For a few bucks a month, you'll get new uncut episodes. Visit waywpodcast.com for more. Next time, cruise in your two digger. What's it about? I don't really know. I've avoided the trailers. We are actually going to be able to see this and review it together in person. Gonna be a lot of fun. Stay tuned.